I forgot to mention in my previous post...

Suzuki have a "revised" part number for the AEC controller.

The fiche states the part number as 32910-20A00	.... I ordered one when I
cooked mine. Suzuki SA sent me a 32910-40A00 AEC controller.

It looks the same ... perhaps they have updated the power circuit ... at ZAR
3000.00 ... I'm not going to open this sucker up.

:o)

Cheers
Pete

From: Peter Stolcs <PeterS@data-tech.co.za>
Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003  11:09:12  AM America/Chicago
To: "'O'Hara, Timothy'" <Timothy.Ohara@kla-tencor.com>
Cc: "Gamma List (E-mail)" <gammalist@edj.net>
Subject: RE: power valve motor speed
Reply-To: PeterS@data-tech.co.za

Hi Tim,

Re: Greg and I really thought we observed that they go faster when the
engine is running, however mine barely goes at all at this point.  Also I
think there is a time-out on the motor to
keep it from smoking the controller.

Once I'd sorted out the cable routing / location problem and replaced the
controller, a manual test (Pink and Grey to the battery etc.) gets the
valves to change position very rapidly ... easily less than 1 second.

I did the same test with the motor running and the valves rotate just as
fast ... i.e. no degradation in speed of operation.

Re: On mine I think it is a friction issue.  Even with the cables
disconnected it takes quite a bit of torque to turn the valves by hand.  I'm
trying to get new cables and I'm planning to change the lube.

My AEC valves don't require much effort to rotate.

I lub'ed my AEC cables with chain lube and one of those neat little cable
lube adapter thingies. Chain lube is perhaps not the best choice because it
gets quite thick, but I reckon it will last longer (and be more effective)
when the cables get warm from the motor. Chain lube did make the cables more
... ummmm ... ummmm sticky?? ... but the Servo motor has enough torque to
not make a diff.

Re: There is a sort of honey like oily substance on the valve shafts. It
adds a lot of turning resistance X 4 it's more than the motor can pull.

???????

This does not sound good. Have you ever used Castrol "R" (castor oil) as a
premix oil?

If so, you can expect castor oil to cause a "gummy" like build-up. Castor
oil gets thick and will even jam piston rings in their ring lands. If you
have run castor oil through the motor, clean everything spotless.

The resistance sounds drastic and could wipe out the power transistors in
the AEC controller, beware!!!

If you find the time, hook up a DVM / multimeter and check the current draw
(amps) of a free running (cables and stoppers removed / disconnected, even
the gears) AEC servo motor. Whatever amperage reading you get will indicate
"running current" of the motor. Log a reading, now put a small load on the
motors shaft and watch the current draw climb.

In-rush current that the AEC Servo motor will draw can be anything from 20 -
100 times the running current. The in-rush occurs the instant you apply
power and just before the motor starts to rotate, this is because the motor
looks almost like a dead short across the supply until it begins to rotate .
Once the motor begins to turn, the current drops, if you load the motor the
current will rise.

The AEC Controller has 4 power transistors, 2 NPN and 2 PNP darlingtons. I
think they are rated at 6 - 8 amps per device. (assuming the heat sink is
ideal ... which it is NOT)

4 transistors are used, 1 x PNP and 1 x NPN in each supply leg (+12 and GND)
to reverse the polarity and thus forward / reverse the AEC Servo. The
benefit here is that the load is divided across 2 transistors (1 PNP and 1
NPN for either direction) but this does not mean that the transistors / AEC
Controller will switch 12 - 16 Amps.

Re: Do they really want the shafts dry?  If so, where do they get their
lubrication from oil mist carried in the exhaust gases?  Any ideas?  What
lube would you recommend?  How about a few drops of two stroke oil? I know
another lister (David Rae) recommended an anti seize grease which could take
the heat for sure.  What have you used?  Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

I can't comment ... I have not removed the AEC valves or even looked to deep
into the manual at what Suzuki recommends.

The valves are steel, the housing is aluminium. My first thought is that the
Aluminium will (perhaps) expand quicker than steel ... perhaps more so than
the steel AEC valve. (Jay!!!) ...

If this is the case, then I don't see a problem mounting / running the
valves as Suzuki recommend in the manual. High temp anti-seize grease may
work ... but what happens to the grease if it's temp range is exceeded?

The upper pipe heat shields (on the header section) on my RG were corroded.
The fibreglass / asbestos insulation had at some point, retained water. The
result is that the inside wall's of the heat shields were rusted and in some
places, there were holes.

I removes the rust and used lead to build up the surface and fill the holes.
I then had my mate copper / cadmium plate the heat shields. I reassembled
the shields and used 25mm thick ceramic wool as an insulator.

I thought that the lead and ceramic wool would handle the heat. The wool is
OK ... but I've found droplets of lead on the motor...... In other words ...
it gets bloody hot .... perhaps not as hot as the AEC valve which is in
closer to the flame front than the section of pipe where the heat shields
are.

Not much help ... just some observations from this side of the pond.

Cheers
Pete

The South African RG500 Web Site
http://www.data-tech.co.za/rg500

-----Original Message-----
From: O'Hara, Timothy [mailto:Timothy.Ohara@kla-tencor.com]
Sent: 30 September 2003 16:46:
To: 'PeterS@data-tech.co.za'; 'keith dickinson'
Cc: Gamma List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: power valve motor speed

Hi Peter,

Interesting to hear of others having problems.  Greg and I really thought we
observed that they go faster when the engine is running, however mine barely
goes at all at this point.  Also I think there is a time-out on the motor to
keep it from smoking the controller.

On mine I think it is a friction issue.  Even with the cables disconnected
it takes quite a bit of torque to turn the valves by hand.  I'm trying to
get new cables and I'm planning to change the lube.

There is a sort of honey like oily substance on the valve shafts.  It adds a
lot of turning resistance X 4 it's more than the motor can pull.  The manual
says just grease the seals.  Do they really want the shafts dry?  If so,
where do they get their lubrication from oil mist carried in the exhaust
gases?  Any ideas?  What lube would you recommend?  How about a few drops of
two stroke oil?

I know another lister (David Rae) recommended an anti seize grease which
could take the heat for sure.  What have you used?  Any help would be
appreciated.  Thanks.

Tim O'Hara, Prowler (2360) GSS Product Engineer
KLA-Tencor (408) 875-2859

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Stolcs [mailto:PeterS@data-tech.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:17 AM
To: 'keith dickinson'
Cc: Gamma List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: power valve motor speed

Hi Keith,

Re: The PV motor then opened the valves OK but it was quite slow (about 2 to
3 seconds).  The last time I checked the operation (with the engine running)
the valve instantly 'snapped' open and closed at the 7k mark.  Do I have a
problem or are the electronics in the control box clever enough to know the
engine is not running?

NO.... the AEC Servo motor should rotate the valves in either direction in
less than 1 second.

Chances are good that the power transistors in the AEC Controller will cook
themselves if it takes 2 - 3 seconds to rotate the valves

Check for damaged / binding cables, check the markings (each are numbered)
on the cables, the cable guides on the Servo motor side and also the drum on
the AEC valves ... the 1-3 and 2-4 cables may be in the wrong locations. I'm
not sure (from memory) if the cables are numbered as per the cylinder ... or
as per the cable guide on the servo motor housing, there may be a
difference.

Pink and Grey wires ( +12V and GND / 0V) will forward / reverse the AEC
Servo motor without the need to run the motor, make sure your battery is
100% charged and in good condition, the AEC Servo motor draws a lot of
current (in-rush).

While you are checking things out ... it may be a good idea to check that
the hall effect transistors (blue and yellow wires) are working. They drop
power to the Servo motor when the cable drum has reached the home position.

My AEC controller had exactly the same problem that you describe - fast to
open - slow to close. The result was blown power transistors in the AEC
controller. (the valves would rotate to the closed position but would not
return to the open position)

Cheers
Pete

The South African RG500 Web Site
http://www.data-tech.co.za/rg500

-----Original Message-----
From: keith dickinson [mailto:dickinsonk@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 29 September 2003 17:27:
To: Gamma List
Subject: power valve motor speed

Hi all,

Nearly got the bike back together but I'm unsure if my powervalve system is
OK.  The engine is not ready to run yet but I checked the PV operation by
turning the ignition on (fully charged good battery) with the valves set in
the closed position.  The PV motor then opened the valves OK but it was
quite slow (about 2 to 3 seconds).  The last time I checked the operation
(with the engine running) the valve instantly 'snapped' open and closed at
the 7k mark.  Do I have a problem or are the electronics in the control box
clever enough to know the engine is not running?

Thanks,

Keith

Re: AEC Controller.

The stock unit is quite simple, you can look at it as 2 parts, servo motor
driver and monitor servo signal control.

The power section consists of 2 NPN and 2 PNP Darlington transistors, a
Shottky diode and a 200 or 300 Ohm (if I recall correctly) 5 Watt resistor
for current limiting. The OEM power transistors have "strange" part numbers
and finding data on them was a mission. I think the OEM parts were 6 - 8 Amp
rated. You can replace these with higher rated BD911 and BD912, just double
check the spec on the BD911 and BD912 .... I say this because I have 2 data
sheets on the BD911/12 and the one shows these units as having an internal
diode while the other spec. sheet does not.

The rest of the circuit (on the ceramic board) is not too complex. The
circuit operates at 5V via the 7805 regulator. There are several diodes and
transistors which are used for conditioning the RPM signal, a LM393 dual
voltage comparator, 2 capacitors that a few transistors that make up the
one-shot timer (1 second delay timer) for the servo motor. The most
important section is the voltage divider network that determines the RPM
crossover point.

The method used for detection is frequency to voltage. The incoming RPM
signal is converted into a voltage which is fed into the dual voltage
comparator. The second stage of the comparator is set to the desired voltage
to effect a RPM cross over point, most of these components (resistors) are
laser trimmed to compensate for manufacturing tolerances of other
components.

Offset of the comparator is used to provide  these . The components This
signal is sent to the one-shot timer which drives the power Darlingtons. The
opposing Darlingtons are (also) fed by signals from the Yellow / Blue
signals from the hall effect transistors in the servo motor.

The incoming RPM signal is conditioned and passed to the LM393 as a voltage
level. The divider network determines the RPM crossover point by comparing
the incoming voltage to the pre-determined voltage.

It's quite a simple circuit but good portion of components used are for
temperature compensation.

Cheers
Pete

(this was it ... it's been in my drafts folder for a while now.)

The South African RG500 Web Site
http://www.data-tech.co.za/rg500

-----Original Message-----
From: Prep Color [mailto:rg500delta@mac.com]
Sent: 18 September 2003 15:31:
To: PeterS@data-tech.co.za
Cc: Gamma List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: SAEC and potting compound

Pete-

Thanks very much for the info.  I hope you're feeling up to snuff these
days.  Well, whatever you decide to do with the SAEC controller,

and I do mean, whatever you decide

I'm in for one, so let me know.  This little doodad can sure spoil the
party when it isn't working

I think I killed my old BDK unit while testing, I had cycled it
numerous times in a short period, and now am pretty sure I simply
overheated a transistor.  What's worse, I was using the timer instead
of the stop sensor, so the motor 'lugged' for 1 second each time
instead of turning off quickly, probably building a LOT more heat.

In the future, I plan to be much nicer to my transistors!  I already
adjusted my setup so that it stops against the sensor, and does not use
the timer circuit.

Just a theory, but in the interest of longevity, I would make sure the
cables are adjusted to that the stop sensors are used.  I don't know
how one could easily test both sensors but if one fails, I think that's
going to put unwanted stress on the transistors.  Not unIike the
charging system,  one weak link stresses the rest of the system, and
then other components fail downstream.

A bad regulator/rectifier can overwork the magneto.  etc, etc.

Randy N

On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 06:11  AM, Peter Stolcs wrote:

Hi Randy,

Re: I see the stock one has an alloy heat sink that contacts all the
transistors, and also the
sides of the steel box in which it resides, so suzuki have paid some
attention to heat sinking.

Yes, a strip of aluminium but the transistor "float" on this heat
sink. It's
better than nothing, but not much in the way of a heat sink really.
When I
opened mine and removed the potting compound I noticed that the
majority of
the aluminium heat sink had compound between itself and the case, the
sides
(as per yours) touched and that was the some total of the heat transfer
path.

Re: do you put any faith in high heat conductivity potting epoxies?  I
see
there are several types for sale online.

No

Rather bolt the power transistors to a steel or aluminium (better)
case and
then fill it with compound. This will ensure direct and direct heat
sinking
to a larger surface area. The metal / copper plate on a TO220
transistor is
the most crucial part, heat sink this well and all should be OK. If
the case
(plastic / ceramic portion of the TO220 reaches any temperature that is
uncomfortable to touch with your finger ... it's already history.

Cheers
Pete

From: Peter Stolcs <PeterS@data-tech.co.za>
Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003  5:35:41  AM America/Chicago
To: 'keith dickinson' <dickinsonk@ntlworld.com>
Cc: "Gamma List (E-mail)" <gammalist@edj.net>
Subject: RE: power valve motor speed
Reply-To: PeterS@data-tech.co.za

Hi Keith,

Re: I've just checked operation as you suggested while the kids were eating
their tea and the motor is still taking ~2 seconds to both open and close
when directly running off 12 V (via
pink and grey wires).  I suppose thats good as it probably means my
controller is alive and well

2 seconds to open .. and another 2 seconds to close..???

The AEC Controller has a one-shot timer that provides the Servo motor with a
1-1.5 second duration of power, this is to prevent the motor being powered
for any duration longer than 1-1.5 seconds. If this timer was not included
in the circuit, the motor would be powered continuously and burn out / or
cook the power transistors in the AEC servo ... whichever comes first (in
most cases, the power transistors would be the first to fail).

The Hall Effect transistors in the AEC Servo motor housing, located near the
large nylon gear detects the "home" position of the AEC valve as they
rotate. Small magnets are located on the gear wheel that trigger the hall
effect transistor. The Gear / Magnets / Hall Effect transistor triggers a
small signal transistor inside the AEC Controller which, in turn, fires the
base of the relevant power transistor pair.

The above portion of the circuit is used to bypass the one-shot timer in the
event that the AEC valves rotate to the required position BEFORE the timer
has "timed-out". In my case.... the hall effect transistors cancel the timer
well before the timer has timed out.

In my opinion, if your controller is taking 2 seconds to rotate the valves
to the "home" position, something is not as it should be.

If the one-shot timer is functioning correctly (1 - 1.5 seconds), the power
supply to forward / reverse the AEC valves will drop BEFORE the AEC valves
reach home position.

It's possible that Suzuki (or whoever built the AEC Controller for them)
have some tolerance issues on the components used and your controller's
one-shot timer has a longer duration than mine.

Here is an attempt to list the mode of operation.

1) Power on (ignition switch)
2) Sense RPM value
3) 7800 RPM attained
4) Send signal to Close AEC valves
5) Trigger the One-Shot Timer
6) Servo motor turns
7) Is Servo in home position (Hall Effect Transistor) Yes / No
8) If Yes - the Hall Effect Transistor has fired the base of the Darlington
pair.
9) If No - the one-shot timer will drop the supply after it has timed out.

Open up the AEC Servo Motor housing and make sure everything is clean and
well lub'ed inside. There is a drain hole and a hose on the lower portion of
the AEC Servo motor housing, I noticed some corrosion on the cover plate of
my AEC Servo motor housing so I had mine cleaned up and cadmium plated.
There is also a detent on the cover plate which help locate the axle of the
main drive gear wheel, I lub'ed all contact points inside the Servo motor
gearbox.

Cheers
Pete

The South African RG500 Web Site
http://www.data-tech.co.za/rg500